assault on the river crake

[Stuie]

Hi Guys. Thought I ought to let you all know about a serious incident that ccurred whilst on the river crake, in cumbria. it has been reported to the police, but I thought I would let all other paddlers know as well. The incident occurred late last year in December 2004


Both myself, and a friend had decided to paddle the River Crake, and we set off from Coniston water, accessing the lake from a public right of way, as described in the BCU English Rivers handbook using one of the agreed access points. As we began padding down the river, we saw two fishermen fishing at Alan Tarn, who began to shout abuse at us. Not wanting to get into a confrontation, we continued along the river, ignoring the fishermen. As we did so, my friend pointed out to me that the two fishermen were following us. Indeed they were, trying to be concealed amongst the bushes, but nonetheless were following us. We decided to continue, confident that we would lose the fishermen, as we were moving faster than they were. However, after about half a mile, we realised they seemed to be heading towards a black 4X4 vehicle, (About the size of a freelander). We continued along the river, until we reached a house just upstream of Lowick Bridge. I now know this house to be XXXXX XXXX XXXXX, Lowick. and it belongs to one of the fisherman, XXX XXXXX

At this point there were 3 men in fishing equipment, and a woman. Two of the fishermen (1 whom I now know to be XXXXX XXX, and is actually the chairman of the ***** ******** Angling Club, and the other I now know to be called XXXX XXXXXX) had got into the river, with the sole intention of causing us harm. As I paddled towards them, one of the fishermen grabbed my boat, and the other grabbed my paddle and wrenched it from out of my hands. One fisherman then tried to overturn my boat, by pushing my head. Obviously, I was now in a very vulnerable position, as I had no paddle with which to right myself, should I be capsized. I managed to get away, and in the process, one fisherman fell backwards into the river, which at this point was very shallow, (18 inches deep). I stopped a couple of metres down steam. My friend by this time had also been apprehended, and forced to stop. We both got out of our boats, largely because I had to retrieve my paddle.

One fisherman began saying he was a police officer for West Cumbria police. I knew this to be false, as there is no "west Cumbria" police force as such; it all is part of Cumbria police. When this was pointed out to him, he retracted this statement, and instead said he was policing the river.

I managed to retrieve my paddle, however, as I then went back towards my boat, another fisherman, a very large man, (6'2" and of very large build which I believe may have been XXXX XXXXXX who owns the house that fisherman had accessed to get to the river) then tackled my from behind, and forced me face down onto the ground, and attempted to pin me there by my paddle. Eventually, I managed to get up, and an angry verbal row ensued as you can imagine, from both parties. Finally, we were able to calm the fishermen down and were able to continue on our way.

The fishermen felt that they "owned" the river and that we had been trespassing. I argued that we had not been trespassing; we had got on at the appropriate place. If in fact we were trespassing, (which I strongly dispute) that is a civil offence. In getting into the water, and assaulting me, the fishermen were committing a criminal offence.

I think the underlying reason for their aggression is that as fisherman, they pay a large amount of money per year to fish the river, and as kayakers, we seem to have the pleasure of it for nothing. Whilst I would be happy to contribute a donation if it were asked, this is not legally the case, and we have the right to paddle the river for free. The third fishermen (whose name I do not know at this time) demanded to know where we were getting out of the river, however, I refused to tell them, as I did not want another confrontation as we exited the river. the reality of the situation was that there are only really two exit points from the river Crake, 1 at Greenodd, and one at Sparks Bridge. I had left my vehicle at Greenodd.

Anyway, we managed to get back onto the river, and continue on our way.

When we got to Greenodd, and began to load the boats onto the camper van, we noticed a man watching us in a white pick up truck, (Sierra or Toyota style). As we left greenodd, we were also aware that he was following us. However, we lost sight of the vehicle in coniston.

We then decided to paddle the River Brathay, Initially paddling Skelwith Force. We parked at the small National Trust Car Park in Elterwater, and went on down the Brathay to Ambleside. The time we left the vehicle was approximately 2pm.

When we returned to the vehicle at 5:45 pm, the front tyres had been slashed, the rear ladder to get onto the roof rack had been torn off, damaging the van doors, and the keys had been stolen. (I had hidden the keys under the van while we were paddling.)

This has incurred considerable cost to me, (Several hundred pounds) as well as the inconvenience at the time of being immobile as the van keys were gone. It also places me in a very vulnerable position, as my house keys were on the same key fob should the fisherman discover where I live. I informed Cumbria police, who have stated that it is probable that the same fisherman that assaulted me were the same people that vandalised my car. It would seem logical that I was followed from Greenodd back to Elterwater, where the men waited until we were gone before causing criminal damage and theft. Incidentally, no other cars in the car park had been touched.

I placed an advert on the angling news website, impersonating a fisherman, and asking if anybody had had any dealings with fisherman on the river crake, and described my friend and myself. Obviously, XXXXX XXX, and his buddy XXXX XXXXXX were unable to keep their fracas to themselves, and implicated themselves by way of replying to my email.

The Police are now dealing with the issue, however, the men are denying the damage to my van, and I am waiting to outcome of them getting questioned. At this time, the case has yet to go to court.

--- PLEASE NO NAMES AND ADDRESSES IN FUTURE POSTS ----

Please circulate this message. These men are nasty, violent, and aggressive. If anybody else has experienced a similar incident, it is very likely that these men are to blame, and such repeat incidences need to be reported to the police.


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[Ed Hopper]

Jesus, that's shocking.

I don't know whether you already have, but it would be well worthwhile posting this on UK Rivers Guide site and / or TWP as loads more people read them and it'll get the message out there.

I hope the police are sucessful in getting a conviction.


All the best,



Ed.

[little tim]

Just to say that we're not all like that around there - most people i know (in fact all) are pro-kayakers.

[Flatlander]

What on earth goes on in some peoples heads? Good luck with the outcome of this case.

Some people just should not be allowed out in public. If they sent bad karma out, bad karma will come back to them.

All the best.

[callwild]

Anybody know the canoeists involved here.
Appears to be a very serious incident but the canoeists are hiding their identity which gives many people on the UKrivers guidebook the feeling that it may be an innaccurate post by trolls.
Who is Stuie , or other guest
Who is Mark Robinson who posted on the fishing forum to trap the anglers.
All very suspicious.
Come forward please if you know this incident actually happened.
Stu Miller

[Guest]

As Stuart states above, please come forward and contact me so I may attempt to do something with this information.

Only by paddlers contacting me (whether BCU members or not - I don't care and will attempt to represent all) can we hope, as a region, to represent paddlers, their needs and their grievances

Mark Davies
BCU Regional Access Officer - Cumbria
07734 923195
cumbriaaccess@aol.com

[Guest]

Easy way to find out who the initail post was from - just reply to his ad on the Sale/Wanted forum, he's trying to sell a Pyranha Creek!

[Molly]

You might want to be careful about posting their names and addresses up on the website. In England you are innocent until proven guilty and you may have helped their case by posting this. I know you are trying to look after other canoeists which is very commendable, just watch out if it goes to court.

[Timmy.Raaar]

This post has been edited please NO NAMES AND ADDRESSES IN FUTURE
_________________
http://www.extremefreestyle.co.uk

[RAO Cumbria]

With regards the initial posting, I can confirm that the incident took place in October; well inside the agreed canoeing dates for this river. I would suggest that basing opinions on one side of any story is a little rash (as above) and can lead to situations getting out of control. In my experience of negotiations between conflicting parties there are always two sides to any story.

Whatever your opinion of access agreements, paddling rivers outside of agreed dates (as this incident shows) does create a whole bunch of hassle which I am more than happy to deal with personally, but does have a real effect on the chances of school groups, young people, coach trainees and assessment candidates etc to paddle un-hassled for what can be more than half the year, on a limited number of rivers in the Cumbria region.

The publishing of names and addresses in the context of the initial posting is unjustified and can suggest actions that paint paddlers in a poor light. The original posting has now been edited (thanks site editor) to remove these

As far as I am aware the police have closed the case, and both parties in this dispute have stated (and I paraphrase) that they would wish the matter finished. The best thing I believe is to move on and get out on those rivers to make the best of what water is left for this season.

Many thanks
Mark Davies
BCU Regional Access Officer - Cumbria

[John Cleaver]

Er… hi guys … it’s me. John Cleaver – you may recognise the name if you have been a follower of the above thread. Unlike some other people, you will notice that I have posted under my real and full name.

Two days ago I was at a canoe access meeting with Mark Davies BCU RAO for Cumbria. He made me aware of this posting and subsequent discussion thread.

Yes - I am one of the "nasty, violent, and aggressive" fisherman - well, except that I am not. I believe I am a very reasonable person and have shown remarkable restraint throughout this entire sorry saga. Apart from being a fisherman I am also a canoeist and a BCU member.

I would like to say thanks to the posters who smelt a rat, to the remainder I would like to say do not be so gullible!

Having kept quiet for so long, there is now a great deal to say – so this will not be a short posting. I do not apologise for that. As well as countering the total misinformation originally posted, I need to comment on the context within which this incident took place, as that is actually much more important.

So let’s start there. The Crake is the only river in South Cumbria with a time zoned, otherwise open, no hassle, no fee, no booking type agreement – for the foreseeable future this is as good as it is going to get guys for the provision of aggro free kayaking (… ok – not good enough for some of you, I understand that)

In the last 2 years it seems like there have been as many paddlers coming down the river outside the agreement, as in it. What is the point of having agreements if this is the case? It certainly does nothing to advance the canoeists cause or the perception of them by other river users

It is crucial I believe that agreements that are in place are seen to be working, if not this actively hinders efforts to create more. (… and that debate I know has been rattling round)

Last year I challenged all canoeists who came down the Crake outside the agreed dates, while I was fishing or in my garden which goes down to the river. I did this in an identical way in all cases by saying “Excuse me, could you pull in for a moment please” – It is after all impossible to have a conversation with someone while they are floating down the river, and I think most people will see that as totally non-aggressive.

On about half of the occasions the canoeists do stop, and we have a sensible conversation about the problems of canoe access, lack of agreements, and most importantly the importance of checking the access situation and sticking to agreements where they do exist. On conclusion they continue down. (Perhaps someone will read this and recognise that this happened to them – if so a posting verifying what I say would be appreciated)

The rest of the time the party continues down without stopping. Sometimes with a cheery “sorry mate – soon be out of your way” – but usually by ignoring me – and sometimes with laughter and ridicule. Worst of all is outright aggression and foul language; this is exceedingly provocative. The latter happened 4 times last year. The incident here resulted from the fourth time – sorry but that was just one too many!
The account posted is a complete fiction. Just about the only point of agreement is that an incident did actually take place.

It occurred around midday on October 29th. not “December” or “end of last year” as posted in various forums. This inaccuracy is indicative of the quality of the rest of the account.

The party was the 4th canoe party down in 2 days. The 3 preceding parties all pulled in no problem, and we had the normal sensible discussion.

At my normal challenge SB (I shall do him the favor of not putting his name, let alone address, in the public domain) shouted "F--- Off" and accompanied it with a finger gesture. As I said very inflammatory, and just once too many.

I did intercept the party down stream. I got into the river and took hold of the handle on the front of SB’s kayak. I did this because they were clearly not going to stop at a second request. I was the only person in the water at this stage. My sole intention was to have the normal discussion about the importance of following access agreements, and also to advise that their behavior had been inflammatory and was highly damaging to the canoeists cause generally. I have to admit that as events unfolded I totally failed to do this!

Let’s consider the issue of “violence” - there was none. This was a trivial spat on the river bank. High in decibels maybe, but no one suffered so much as a teeny weeny graze. When I grabbed the kayak he (predictably) hit me with his paddle. Within the hour I reported this to the police as an assault but advised that I did not wish to press charges. When he made to hit me with his paddle for a second time he was appropriately restrained. No other physical contact took place.

Following the departure of the canoeists we noticed that a camera (valued at £700) had disappeared. We all noticed where it was during the incident, but now it was gone. I am sure I do not need to specify what conclusion we came to. This too was reported to the police.

I have photos taken at the time (on another camera fortunately) that completely refute the posted account. These are in the hands of the police.

There is then the issue of the reported damage to a vehicle. If this did actually occur then it is most certainly a regrettable and shameful crime, and it is very understandable that the owner would be very annoyed – who wouldn’t be? Unlike the incidents on the river where I was present and know exactly what happened, I have no idea what did or did not happened in a car park 20 miles away. My understanding is that no evidence of any actual damage was received by the police.

The police have investigated the incident as they were bound to do when a counter allegation of assault was made with a request to press charges. This case is now closed. They exhibited much frustration in having to waste their time on such trivial and obviously unfounded allegations.

Things should have ended there but they did not. In the weeks after the incident several threatening and malicious telephone calls were received. Some of these were recorded. These recordings are in the hands of the police.

Now we have had names and addresses posted in public discussion forums with unjustified vitriol attached. This seems like an incitement to violence to me, which is I believe a crime. I have requested that the webmaster/moderator remove these from all three forums where it was posted. This has already been actioned – Thanks.

So there we have it. Two completely different accounts of the same event. Can I suggest that any further discussion or speculation between these two is utterly pointless – it was four and a half months ago after all!

That is all I have to say about the events, both now and in the future.
- - - - - -
What is much more important, is what lessons can be learnt, to reduce the chances of things like this happening again. So lets return to the overall context. The situation on our river banks is deteriorating, as this incident and others last year indicate. We all know the whole issue of access is highly contentious. (I have just read the humongous thread http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4997” Initial posting by RAO Cumbria on Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:41 pm - now let me see – that was the day of the incident, and shortly after I rang him! – hmmmm – seems like the incident triggered another whole stream of invective that was unknown to me until just now!

The fundamental is that people just want a day fishing or canoeing without aggro.

To the best of my knowledge no canoeist has ever has been threatened or been the subject of violence on the river. All canoeists are very welcome to paddle the Crake within the agreement – have a great day! However it is of paramount importance that this agreement works better in the future than it has done in the recent past. Wearing my fishing hat, I can assure you that paddling outside agreements does a great deal of damage to the perception of canoeists by other river users and landowners.

For paddlers who decide to canoe rivers where there is no access agreement during the fishing season, or worse, outside agreements, please please maintain your cool if challenged. Be polite and courteous at all times. Few people object to a polite discussion and exchange of views. If you have a point of view look at any challenge as an opportunity to air it. Being abusive achieves absolutely nothing that is positive, lots that is negative.

Some good may yet come out of this sorry saga. It has certainly galvanised me to try to do something (more fool me!). As mentioned I am both a fisherman and a kayaker (ok – mainly sea kayaking). I can see both sides views with clarity, and it is not a pretty picture.

In South Cumbria a Fisheries Action Plan (FAP) has recently been initiated; a process facilitated by the EA. Recreation falls within the remit, and as canoeing is the main recreation impinging on anglers, Mark Davies (BCU Cumbria RAO) is on this group.

We have formed a Canoe Access Sub Group and met for the first time this week. I am Chairing this group. Present were 3 BCU officials, angling representatives from the Duddon, Crake, Leven and Kent catchments, plus the EA. This was a great meeting with people discussing the very difficult situation intelligently and with mutual understanding and respect. (….another talking shop I hear you say? – now stop that – if the parties do not even talk then god help us – jaw jaw better than war war etc.)

Steering a middle way between the deeply polarised views will be very difficult, but we will try. Doubtless we will get flack from both sides, but that is to be expected; and it will be infinitely preferably to the sh1t outlined above.

(n.b. Identical posting in all three forums)

[RAO Cumbria]

Please read my previous post as "well OUTSIDE agreed dates for canoeing"

Sorry. Many thanks,

Mark Davies
BCU Regional Access Officer - Cumbria